Topic: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey gang,

I'm just wondering if those of us that have 5 digit brokers still have to convert Pips to Points in the Market --> Charges dialogue box, as I've had quite a few good looking systems come up using 8.00 Pips (Points?), but get only 1 system generated using 80.00 Pips (Points?).

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Pip = Point for FSB

FSB calls "pip" the last digit of a quotation. For example:
4 digit quotation: EURUSD 1.2456   - pip is 6
5 digit quotation: EURUSD 1.24567 - pip is 7

I know that in the traders jargon a pip is the froth digit in EURUSD and the second one in USDJPY even for the 5 (3) digit quotation. But FSB calls pip what is think a point.

The easiest way for understanding FSB is where you see pips to think that this is point.

FSB Pro will use the correct therm point instead of pip.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

I just searched FSB Project for "pip".

Found: Matching lines: 263    Matching files: 49    Total files searched: 311

It's fully possible to replace pip with point in FSB now and later in FST.
Do you think it's good idea to do so?

4 (edited by Radar 2013-05-19 14:39:43)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

I just searched FSB Project for "pip".

Found: Matching lines: 263    Matching files: 49    Total files searched: 311

It's fully possible to replace pip with point in FSB now and later in FST.
Do you think it's good idea to do so?

I think it would be better to maintain a consistent definition of Pip as being the 2nd digit after the decimal point in JPY pairs, and the 4th digit after the decimal point in non-JPY pairs, (and whatever is the correct digit in Metals) in FSB, and to convert to Points in the EA, as we now have some brokers that use 5 digits for some non-JPY symbols, and 4 digits for other non-JPY symbols.

We've had this problem for years... It comes from the definition of a pip that was used before brokers started using 5 digits, "A Pip is the last digit...". Once brokers started using 5 digits, that definition became ambiguous.

By having a standard definition of a pip, we will eliminate one source of confusion in setting up FSB, and will prevent the situation where we have to ask someone that posts a system, "Are you using a 4 digit or 5 digit broker?".

On Steve Hopwood's forum, a user by the name of Lifesys came up with a conversion system that has become standard in all of Steve's EA's.

I'm not a coder, so can't dig out the relevant code, but it's in Steve's collection, which I've attached.

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

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Re: Pip-Point Conversion

We've had this problem for years... It comes from the definition of a pip that was used before brokers started using 5 digits, "A Pip is the last digit...". Once brokers started using 5 digits, that definition became ambiguous.

That's exactly the problem. FSB uses points everywhere. They were called pips since point was equal to pip in the far 2006 when I published FSB. Long I refused to change the program because I wanted to keep the theory: Pip is the smallest that can be changed and 1 Lot is the smallest that can be traded. But the world has changed. FSB has to be change too (unfortunately sad ).

I already made several steps for changing FSB to be compatible with the future FSB Pro. Renaming Pips to Points seems to be the next one.

6 (edited by Radar 2013-05-19 15:43:59)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

We've had this problem for years... It comes from the definition of a pip that was used before brokers started using 5 digits, "A Pip is the last digit...". Once brokers started using 5 digits, that definition became ambiguous.

That's exactly the problem. FSB uses points everywhere. They were called pips since point was equal to pip in the far 2006 when I published FSB. Long I refused to change the program because I wanted to keep the theory: Pip is the smallest that can be changed and 1 Lot is the smallest that can be traded. But the world has changed. FSB has to be change too (unfortunately sad ).

I already made several steps for changing FSB to be compatible with the future FSB Pro. Renaming Pips to Points seems to be the next one.

Yep, they do like to try and keep us confused.  You can be sure that once we use a work-around that counts the digits from right to left, they'll introduce a 6th digit to break our systems again. that's why I think it's best to stick with a definition that reads the digits from left to right... They can tack on as many extra digits as they like, and it won't break anything.

I don't think renaming Pips to Points is the way to go, though... Better to have a clear numerical definition for each, and a simple conversion method.

Stay consistent in FSB and FST, and let the EA handle the brokers' tomfoolery.

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Project for FSB v3.0

1 pip = 0.0001 for 4, 5 or 6 digits quotation (1.2345, 1.23456, 1.234567)
1 pip = 0.01 for 2 or 3 digits quotation (123.45, 123.456)
1 pip = 0.1 for 1 digit (123456.7) <----- ?????
1 pip = 1 for round numbers (123456)


What about the third case? 1 pip = 0.1 or 1 when we have 1 decimal digit.
Most probably it must be 1 pip = 1 for 1 decimal digit. ?

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Popov wrote:

I just searched FSB Project for "pip".

Found: Matching lines: 263    Matching files: 49    Total files searched: 311

It's fully possible to replace pip with point in FSB now and later in FST.
Do you think it's good idea to do so?

I think you should change pips to points everywhere and modify all calculations that give an answer in pips. If a trader can't work out how many points is equal to one pip he should be trading.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

I think you should change pips to points everywhere and modify all calculations that give an answer in pips.

Not only answers, but as well as the input parameters. For example Stop Loss, Take Profit, Break Even, Vertical Shift of indicators.Spread, slippage and commission also has to be in pips.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Everything works fine at the moment, just change any reference of pips to points to avoid the confusion.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Everything works fine at the moment, just change any reference of pips to points to avoid the confusion.

I already started this change. If we name the params properly to Points, everything will be correct.

The other option is to change the meaning of Pip as I posted 3 posts above. But I'm afraid that will be a big mess with indicators and strategies. The more I think about it, the more I tend to leave all params and results in Points.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Pips is really a forex only term. I think that with many other contracts like metals and stock indices available to trade on the MT4 platform now the need for a simple system that can be used across all of these is required. I can't see Gold traders using the term pips.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

Project for FSB v3.0

1 pip = 0.0001 for 4, 5 or 6 digits quotation (1.2345, 1.23456, 1.234567)
1 pip = 0.01 for 2 or 3 digits quotation (123.45, 123.456)
1 pip = 0.1 for 1 digit (123456.7) <----- ?????
1 pip = 1 for round numbers (123456)

What about the third case? 1 pip = 0.1 or 1 when we have 1 decimal digit.
Most probably it must be 1 pip = 1 for 1 decimal digit. ?

Now we're on the money! smile

The third case will become tricky when we have a symbol that has 1 digit for Pips and a broker decides he wants to add a 2nd digit for Points. The way around that is to have definitions for those symbols.

I would take the definitions one step further, though...

For standard symbols...

1 Point = 0.00001 for 5, 6, or 7 digits quotation (1.23456, 1.234567, 1.2345678)
1 Point = 0.001 for 3 digits quotation (123.456)

For non-standard symbols that use the first decimal place for Pips

1 Point = 0.01

And there's where we get back to ambiguity sad

Unless the user can input exactly what their broker calls a Pip, and what they call a Point, we'll always have some users that get spurious results when generating strategies sad

It may be better to leave non-standard quotations out for the moment, until the need arises.

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

I'll rename "Pips" texts to "Points" for now.
Point is always the smallest change (or last digit).

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

I changed Pips to Points. It's mostly a cosmetic change. All settings, indicators and strategies are compatible.

1 Point is the smallest value can be changed.
Examples:

0.00001 for EURUSD 1.23456
0.001 for USDJPY 123.456

http://s11.postimg.org/pkzooaqlb/points_stats.jpg


http://s18.postimg.org/x2tr39p85/charges_in_points.jpg


This change will be included in next beta version soon.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

I changed Pips to Points. It's mostly a cosmetic change. All settings, indicators and strategies are compatible.

1 Point is the smallest value can be changed.
Examples:

0.00001 for EURUSD 1.23456
0.001 for USDJPY 123.456

http://s11.postimg.org/pkzooaqlb/points_stats.jpg


http://s18.postimg.org/x2tr39p85/charges_in_points.jpg


This change will be included in next beta version soon.

That works for 5 digit quotations, but leaves you with the situation where 1 Pip = 10 Points on 5 digit brokers, and yet 1 Pip = 1 Point on 4 digit brokers:(

When there were no 5 digits quotations, the saying was, "A Pip is the smallest value that can be changed", the we got the smart-guy broker who decided to start quoting 5 digits, just to confuse people, (which worked quite well), so people started calling the 5th digit a Point, saying "A Point is the smallest value that can be changed". And so the confusion continues... sad

Silly question... Would ignoring the 5th digit (3rd digit on JPY pairs) break the system and indicators? Can we do all our calculations to the 4th decimal place without skewing the results too much?  If so, then leave it to the EA to do the Pips<--> Pipettes (Points) conversion. (Pipettes is a BabyPips term).

I know I"m the new kid on the block here, and am being a bit pushy, but to me, the terms "Last digit" and "Smallest value that can be changed" are about as mathematically precise as "A bunch", and it's hard to do a bunch of calculations when the value of the terms vary.

I use a 5 digit broker, I tend to see 1 Pip as 10 Points, as that's what I've "grown up" with in forex, but it's hard to know what's what when Pips and Points are used interchangeably. sad

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Would ignoring the 5th digit (3rd digit on JPY pairs) break the system and indicators?

You can. Set 4 digits in the Instrument Editor and set Spread, Swap, TP, SL... in Points = Pips. No matter than the data are with 5 digits. FSB will work correctly. (results will be rounded to the 4th digit)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

I use a 5 digit broker, I tend to see 1 Pip as 10 Points, as that's what I've "grown up" with in forex, but it's hard to know what's what when Pips and Points are used interchangeably.

What you do when using MT experts. You set everything in points. You can easily see what is the environment of your broker and adjust FSB / FST in minutes.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

Would ignoring the 5th digit (3rd digit on JPY pairs) break the system and indicators?

You can. Set 4 digits in the Instrument Editor and set Spread, Swap, TP, SL... in Points = Pips. No matter than the data are with 5 digits. FSB will work correctly. (results will be rounded to the 4th digit)

Ahhh, just what I needed, thank you smile

I'm going to have fun with this baby now smile

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

The easy way to check your settings is to use FST. Connect to your chart and press "Market Info".


http://s11.postimg.org/bx30vwylb/FST_Market_Info.jpg

Enter these params in FSB.

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

I use a 5 digit broker, I tend to see 1 Pip as 10 Points, as that's what I've "grown up" with in forex, but it's hard to know what's what when Pips and Points are used interchangeably.

What you do when using MT experts. You set everything in points. You can easily see what is the environment of your broker and adjust FSB / FST in minutes.

Actually, I have used very few experts where I had to enter 50 to get 0.0005... I guess I've been spoiled, as I mostly use experts written by Steve Hopwood, and he adamantly refuses to accept the 5th digit in any input for them... Every external input is converted to the 4th digit and up. He's gone as far as setting the inputs as integers, so that we can't enter 2.5 to play with the 5th digit wink

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Hey Popov,

Popov wrote:

The easy way to check your settings is to use FST. Connect to your chart and press "Market Info".


http://s11.postimg.org/bx30vwylb/FST_Market_Info.jpg

Enter these params in FSB.


Now, that ^^^  has to go into Doug's "Setting Up FSB" video!! smile

Have fun!

Radar  =8^)

Re: Pip-Point Conversion

Now, that ^^^  has to go into Doug's "Setting Up FSB" video!

Really? I just wrote a short tutorial about that and was going to link it in the Doug's topic. ))))))))))